2004 M3 Vs. 2004 S4

[Paper Tiger]

Okay, I just came back from 2 dealers, an Audi dealer and a BMW dealer.
I have (As the topic title might suggest.) the new S4 and the new M3 in mind.
Style wise, M3 gets my vote.
But, with bigger engine, AWD, short shifter and for 10K less, it was hard to overlook the new S4.
I got the M3 catalog and the S4 catalog from the two dealers, the Audi dealer also gave me a "Car and Driver" issue featuring direct comparison of C32 AMG, M3 and S4.
Coincidently (Sarcasm), this issue placed the S4 in first, M3 in second and C32 AMG in third.

Here's how "Car and Driver" scored:

<b>Audi S4 Quattro:</b>
Engine: 10
Transmission: 10
Brakes: 9
Handling: 10
Ride: 7
Driver Comfort: 9
Ergonomics: 9
Features and Amenities: 9
Fit and Finish: 8
Styling: 9
Value: 9
Fun to Drive: 10
<b>Total: 96</b>

<b>BMW M3:</b>
Engine: 8
Transmission: 9
Brakes: 9
Handling: 8
Ride: 7
Driver Comfort: 7
Ergonomics: 8
Features and Amenities: 7
Fit and Finish: 7
Styling: 9
Value: 7
Fun to Drive: 8
<b>Total: 90</b>

<b>Mercedes-Benz C32 AMG</b>
Engine: 8
Transmission: 7
Brakes: 8
Handling: 7
Ride: 8
Driver Comfort: 8
Ergonomics: 8
Features and Amenities: 9
Fit and Finish: 8
Styling: 7
Value: 7
Fun to Drive: 7
<b>Total: 87</b>

What is the reason for the M3 being 10K more than the S4?
Is it just the name?
To be very honest, I'm still leaning towards the M3.
Why? I don't know, I guess it's because it's a BMW and it's an M3.
However, if I can just get over the name, I seriously don't know why I'd buy the M3 over S4...
I'm stomped, can you guys give me some hard evidence for the M3 being better than the S4?

Thanks,
Paper Tiger.

 

[E36M3]

well in the long run the audi will probably end up losing value a lot quicker than the M. Like now im seeing 2001 S4's for high 20's whereas the 2001 M's are still in the 40's. but i guess thats just from the investment point of view.

 

[j2azz]

I had a post on this.. Read back somewhere, I think its in BMW Newbie. I test drove the new S4 and currently own a 2003 M3. The S4 is NOT cheaper. You must've been told base price, because I was given an option sheet and the car I drove was 1k less (retail) than my M3 (retail).

Buy the M3, it's faster.... [fake]

 

[Paper Tiger]

Audi was less, my sister got an A4 a month ago and the Audi dealer told me that there's a same household loyalty reward. I do not live in the same house with my sister and parents, but I could work it out some how to get the reward. Now, the reward is only about $500, so it didn't really affect the price much.

Audi S4, fully loaded (Navigation, 19" wheels the works.) with tax and title came out to be around $55,000.

BMW M3 Coupe, fully loaded (Navigation, wheels, SMG, etc.) with tax and title came out to be around $65,000.

BMW charges for their options and a lot of those same options come free with Audi and that was the main difference.

Yes, the M3 is faster by milli-seconds. But, with AWD and bigger engine, the S4 is faster in higher speeds. In a quarter mile stretch, surprisingly enough, all three cars were at exact tie.
There isn't much of a difference in speed.

Style wise, M3 wins in my book, hands down. However, BMW will release a new "Banglized" M3 along with the new 3-Series in two to three years. I'm not too crazy about the new Bangle designs, but I don't hate them either. I plan to drive my new car for at least 5 years; I'd hate to have a new model come out two years into it... S4 is all new this year; it won¡¯t change for the next 5 years.

With all of that said, why the heck am I still leaning towards the M3?
It's almost as if I need to justify my reasons... or need that extra assurance for my choice from you guys.
You guys really don't have any better reasons, why the M3 is better than the S4?

 

[aarons]

I was in a similar position a few months ago. I used the following points to make my decision:

*I've always wanted an M3. The S4 was just a neat surprise. If I choose the audi, however, I feared I'd always regret not getting the car which had occupied my mind for the previous few years.

*Home is Milwaukee, school is Pittsburgh. Basically, I liked the idea of AWD. Upon further contemplation, and the recent experience of driving my moms new 540 in the snow, the importance of AWD sort of faded. Snow tires make a big difference, and the bmw traction control (or whichever of the 3-letter acronyms roughly translates) is pretty amazing.

*The M3 looks nicer.

*The audi had that superior review, and while not as fast, is nearly as fast. However, there are also reviews which favor the M3.

*The audi is new. This means that its both more rare (good) and has a higher potential for bugs (bad). Just think of the bearing problem in the earlier E46 M3s.

*The bmw electrical system is largely reverse-engineered, and there is a community actively working on it. This was important to me because I wanted to build a custom mp3 system and interface it with the navigation screen and steeringwheel controls. This is pretty easy on the bmw, but I couldn't find any info on the audi. The M3 would save me a lot of time.


In the end I convinced myself that the M3 was the better choice for me. Every time I get into my car now I get a smile on my face. I'm confident that I made the right decision -- this car is even better than I had imagined. My only regret is not getting the width adjustable seats, and that's pretty silly considering that I have no problem with the current seats and I've never even tried the width adjustable. There's just the nagging thought that I may be missing out due to a quick, uninformed decision.

 

[j2azz]

Thats the only review that Audi dealers hand out because its the only one that beats the M3. There was another review the Audi dealer shouldn't have handed me that really favored the M3. Said the new S4 was only pulling a 0-60 in mid 5's, and the long term test M3 was pulling a 4.5 0-60.

The S4 is 500+ pounds heavier, meaning no matter if its awd or not, it cannot handle as good. It's tooooo heavy. Check the numbers in the Audi favored review, M3 is still better. The points that you listed above are all oppinions of old people. Check the hard facts of what the cars actually pulled for speeds through slaloms and skidpad ratings in that same review.

Technology is much better in M3 as well. S4 = 344 HP out of V8, M3 = 333HP out of I6. hmm..

M3 no matter what in my book, considering I also drove both cars, I still favor M3.

Also, GPS in Audis suck, there is no map display, so that is a good 1500-2000 dollar difference in one option between the two cars. Not sure about the rest, I'll take a look at the sheet when I get home to see what else Audi offers.

Basically my advice, drive both cars, and you'll know right away.

 

[Paper Tiger]

Thanks a bunch guys, one reason why I cannot allow myself to rush to an Audi dealer to place my order for the new S4 is that, I might regret not buying an M3.
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm am a huge fan of BMW and even bigger fan of M cars.

Here's is the main reason why I haven't rushed to a BMW dealer, the new M3 along with a V8 engine boasting 400 HP engine is just around the corner (I've heard Summer to Fall of 2005 delivery for the 2006 models.), it's about 2 years away. Even if I buy an M3 now, I'll still keep my old 2000 Honda Prelude, I've bought while I was in college, to drive to work and to grocery stores. I'll only drive the M3 on weekends and for joy rides, it'll be kept in the garage at all times.
With that said, should I wait 2 years and buy the upcoming M3, since I don't need a new car right away? Is my release time of the new M3 accurate? I've heard of a modified version of 2004 M3, code named: CSL (Coupe, Sport, Lightweight). Will CSL be released in U.S. shores? Will it be hard to get my hands on one? Anybody know how much it will cost in the U.S.? When will it be released here in the U.S.?
$60,000 to $65,000 is a big commitment to me, I want to make sure I'm completely satified with my purchase. Thanks for your help guys.

 

[j2azz]

CSL is a different M3. Check www.bmwworld.com for details on it. I think that one costs like 250k or something ridiculous and its all carbon fiber.

I have no idea on the new release date for the 400HP M3. Just assume it will be 1 year after the release of the new style 3 series (whenever that is). That seems to be the shedule BMW takes.

 

[aarons]

What? 250k? That makes no sense. I believe it's more like 80-90k. The same engine but they manage to squeeze like 360hp out of it. Its basically just a stripped down version of the regular m3 with some performance tweaks.

And no, it's not coming to the US. Search the roadfly forum if you want good info on it:
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/

 

[aarons]

I forgot to address another point: you may wish to wait for the v8 for the m3, but don't forget that it is basically guarenteed to look like crap compared to the E46.

 

[j2azz]

oops, sorry, was looking at M3 GTR. Current model with V8.. My bad..

 

[m3onkey]

any ideas on when the rs4 will be out? if you want an audi, you should wait and get the new rs4. but if you need to choose between the new s4 and m3, go for the m3, you'll prob. be a lot happier with the m3 in the long run.

 

[j2azz]

Isn't the RS4 going to be a station wagon? A very very fast station wagon?

 

[Abdoman]

You wouldn't be talking about the M3 that BMW only sold about 8 or 9 of, would you? Last year I read an article about an M3 that BMW dropped the M5 engine in. They said it was simply incredible and wanted to know why the just didn't use the same engine. I will look for the article.

 

[j2azz]

yea, thats probably what I had seen. I had seen a cost of 250k though? no clue how accurate that is..

And I woulda liked the M5 engine in there instead, easier to mod too... Can't do much to the I6

 

[Paper Tiger]

I think there is a sedan version of the RS4, but I've only seen the Avant version in magazines and websites.

They dropped an M5 engine into an M3? I wonder what that's like?
They probably had problems with the weight balancing, it'll be too front heavy with that engine in the M3. How did they fit it?
I knew, in the back of my mind that M3 CSL couldn't be $250,000. I first saw it in a British magazine and they listed it as 60 pounds. One pound is about 1.2 dollar, so with options and tax added, it'll be around $75,000 to $80,000. I didn't know for sure though. The magazine also said that all the orders for the CSL was full in every dealer in England.

My rant:

I do like the M3 now, but as I've mentioned, I do not have any problems with most of the Chris Bangle's designs, especially the new 6-Series. Therefore, I'd much rather have an M3 with the bigger engine.
I'm seriously thinking about either buying a Mini Cooper until the new M3 comes out or leasing a Z4 for 2 years. If I can buy a 2004 M3 now ($65,000) and can sell it for about $50,000 two years later. I'd do it, but I don't think it's going to be easy finding a person who'd want to buy a used $50,000 car and not consider a brand spanking new model for about $15,000 more.

 

[aarons]

Why not lease a 2004 m3? Then you can either turn it in for a 2006 m3 or keep it if the m3's are ugly.

You probably would be able to stick whatever engine they put in the new m3s in your e46 too, if that's your concern.

 

[Abdoman]

Yea, the article on the M3 GTR is here

 

[Paper Tiger]

My dealer had a slightly used Z4 they were going to let me lease for cheap. That was the only reason why I even considered to lease, I don't like the idea of leasing. If I lease a new M3, it'll be a waste of money, since it's a car very high in demand.

I've decided. I will trade in my Prelude, which I was going to keep, and buy a Mini Cooper. Instead of keeping my Prelude, I will now drive the Mini for 2 years and keep the Mini in place of the Prelude.

 

[j2azz]

wow, 218k, and 444hp. I want one. E46 M3 would cruise with 444HP. damn...
Wonder what the torque is on that thing..